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So welcome to the meaningful jobs podcast season two. I'm Adrian, your host. And today,
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we are so glad to welcome Dorcas to our podcast. How are you Dorcas?
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I'm good. Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.
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Thank you. Thanks so much. So, yeah, I think the reason why, you know, I was, you know,
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really interested in having you in our podcast is because I was doing some research online. I saw
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PZ wrote about spirituality and how it ties in with the perks that Silicon Valley companies are
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offering to employees nowadays. So, you know, before we dive into, you know, deeper topics like
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meaning of work and so on, could you maybe give us a brief overview about your career? Because I think
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you got into communications and you are an entrepreneur as well. So, yes, yes. So I've done
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a few different things, had a few different careers as I'm running people. I actually started out in
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the nonprofit sector just felt real love for social justice and trying to address social challenges.
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So for a number of years, I worked for different nonprofits doing community development, youth
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leadership, volunteer recruitment, affordable housing. And then a little later on, I moved into
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the social enterprise space. So my husband is the co-founder of a social enterprise called Delight,
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which creates solar powered products for families without access to electricity and developing
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countries. So he and I actually moved to China to help oversee the manufacturing operations
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for the company. And so at that time, I joined the company, I started off as their director of
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communications and director of human resources because, you know, in a startup, everyone has to
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do multiple jobs. So I did that for a little while and it was incredibly impactful, incredibly
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meaningful. And it was very intense. So not only were we working very long days trying to solve
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this massive problem of 1.3 billion people in the world not having access to grid electricity,
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but we were also living in a foreign country. I'm ethnically Chinese, but I was born in the U.S.
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and so China felt like a very different place to me. And so it was a lot, it was a lot of stress.
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And I ended up totally burning out. And because of that, then I started journaling. So I started
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journaling just to process a lot of what had happened to try to understand what was happening
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within me and why I had responded the way I did to the circumstances around me. And through that,
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I discovered how healing and meaningful writing was for me. So then that started a whole new
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career path for me, which is writing. So I'm writing professionally for more than 10 years now,
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have also been doing editing as well. And so I have a bunch of articles and essays published,
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have three books published. And then now I am currently serving as the editorial director
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of a faith-based nonprofit called PAX. And what I love about this role is it actually marries
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a lot of what I love. So I get to be back in the nonprofit sector working for justice,
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but also getting to work with words and write and work with other writers and artists,
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which is wonderful. Well, it sounds like a really cool story that you have. Could you tell us a
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little bit about why you got into nonprofit at such a young age? Because I think that most people
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would usually start out in the corporate world, but for you, you went straight into a nonprofit.
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So I think part of it is that I am just a very empathic person. So I think those of us who are
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born particularly empathic, and there's also a category of people called highly sensitive people.
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So I can't myself as one of them as well, where you just really connect and identify with others.
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And I think particularly when others are having a hard time, when they're suffering,
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when something unfair and unjust has happened, you can't help but feel some measure of emotional
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investment and wanting to try to address that and try to do what you can to make things better.
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I also had the benefit of some really fantastic opportunities and professors and peers in college
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who really inspired me. So my sophomore year in college, I spent a week. So it was called an
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alternative spring break project where over spring break, instead of taking a vacation,
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you actually do a service learning trip. And so we went to downtown San Francisco,
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lived there and served there for one week and really looked very intensively at the
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topic of homelessness and people who are not. And why is this the case? What are the challenges?
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What are the possible solutions? And I think from there, it just made me realize, wow, I think
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these are the kinds of things that I want to work on. Like everything that I have been given,
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my education, the opportunities, my immigrant parents worked super hard to get me to where I
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am today. I would love to be able to give back to others and to ensure that others also have
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similar opportunities and have the chance to fulfill their potential and pursue what they most love to do.
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But you say you encountered any particular difficulties in the non-profit sector?
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Oh yeah. Yeah, I'm just fancy. Non-profit sector is full of difficulties.
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The burnout rate in the non-profit sector is something like 50%.
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Even higher than the corporate world, you think? Possibly so because you're working incredibly
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long hours, you're getting severely underpaid by making less than 10% of what people in the
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corporate world make. And everyone's wearing multiple hats doing multiple jobs because there
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are just never enough resources to go around. And you're surrounded by, you're just constantly in
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the thick of it in these really challenging thorny questions that are causing real people a lot of
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pain. And so there's this emotional energy that you need to use as well just to care for yourself,
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to care for the people around you. And so it's very common for people to just become exhausted
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because there's so much to be done and not enough people to do it. And you yourself might be
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struggling to pay the bills or even time to rest. And so that's really challenging. I love
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the non-profit sector and I think there are a lot of things about the sector that we can do to make
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it a more sustainable place to work. Is there any reason why it seems the non-profit sector is quite
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understaffed aside from funding issues? I'm not sure, do you think it's because of a labor shortage
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or are there any other reasons why that might be the case? Oh goodness, well, this is getting into
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macroeconomics which is not right. Yeah, yeah, sorry about that. I think funding is a huge, I mean,
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that's sort of the bottom line challenge of pretty much every non-profit is being able to access a
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regular stream of funding. And then without that funding, it's hard to retain people, it's hard to
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attract people. And then as I was saying with this high burnout rate, you have a lot of turnover.
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And so even if you have these great people coming into the industry, they're not necessarily going
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to stay. So I think a good number, probably like half of those people who burn out, I believe a study
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was done, half of them just leave the non-profit sector altogether because it's too difficult.
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So I think there are plenty of people who want to do this kind of work. But can we actually pay
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them what they're worth? Can we pay the hours and the weight of the work a little bit more
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humane, it's sustainable? And can we find the funding to make it all stay afloat and keep going
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without stress on everyone? So I think you mentioned that you had, you experienced burnout
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when you were in China. That happened also before you went to China or like, did it happen
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because of that? Yeah, yeah, unfortunately, I was on a pretty regular cycle of burning out
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like every two years. So I thought, I thought it was the jobs, you know, and just something that it
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was. And then I think a lot of it was also me in that I had very high expectations of myself. I,
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as much as, you know, there was to do in my roles, I felt like I had to do even more because the
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stakes are so high, right? It can feel like life or death, it feels like, you know, so many people
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are counting on me. And I guess it is life or death sometimes. It can be, yeah. And, but at the
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same time, I think, you know, there is this unhealthy mentality that a lot of us who work in
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social justice can, can develop, which is the sense of like, it's all on me. And like, I don't do it,
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no one will or I can't fix this and no one can. And the reality is that none of us are that big and
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that important, you know, we play our part, we should be faithful to play our part. But, but we
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do this together, we do it in community, we depend on one another. And if there's something that I
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can't do, then I should look to somebody else to pick it up, you know, I think it's almost this,
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in there's this weird kind of ego in it, where, where you make yourself out to be more important
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than you are, that you alone can change the world and make everything better and fix all the problems.
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And that's just not the case. Again, I think you find your place, you do your part to the best of
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your ability. And then you recognize that there's a lot, there's a lot that I can't do. And so I
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think it wasn't until I started to understand that, and it took a long time, which is why I kept
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burning out over and over again. And the burnout in China was definitely by far the worst one,
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because I, you know, spiraled into a very deep depression for quite a number of months, couldn't
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work, couldn't really do much more than sleep and journal really. And, but, but at that point,
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that was when I started to realize the way that I have been functioning is not working. And I have
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to do something completely different. I guess I'm quite fascinated when you said you came to a
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sudden, you know, realization that, you know, what you were doing isn't working, because it, you know,
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it takes quite a lot of time to actually ref, a lot of guts as well to reflect on what you did
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wrong and admit your mistakes. So could you share a little bit about how you came to this
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realization and how you coped with burnout? Because I guess that's something that a lot of
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other viewers or even, you know, people not viewing our channel, you know, would suffer on a daily
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basis. Yeah, Birdo is very serious and it's very real. So many people go through it. You know, for me,
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I think one of the mistakes I made was that I didn't pay attention to the early sides of it.
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So when I had those initial few burnouts, they were a little bit more minor, you know, so I would
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feel a lot of anxiety. I'd have trouble sleeping at night. I have my heart would be racing a lot of
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times and I just ignored it, especially because I was young also, I was in my early mid 20s. And so
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you have this sense of like, whatever, I can do anything, I'm fine, I'm healthy. And I didn't pay
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attention to that. So when I would leave one stressful job, I would just move into the next
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stressful job. And wasn't very intentional about thinking about, is this really going to be a
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place, you know, as good as the work is that they're doing, is this really going to be a place where
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I can cultivate some sense of balance in my life, sense of it's okay to take breaks, it's okay to
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to leave some of those burdens at work and not carry them home. And so then by the time it
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happened to me in China, it was so serious that it almost did feel like a life or death thing for
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me personally, of if I don't change this, I am maybe never going to be able to work again.
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And you know, work is something that gives many of us a lot of purpose. And so you don't,
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yeah, I mean, ideally, you don't want to get to that place where all you can do is
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Yeah. So, you know, what was challenging at the time was that I was living in China and not in
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Beijing or Shanghai, not those like major metropolitan cities. What's that?
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Like in one of the smallest cities.
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Well, you know, I should say it was still a large city. I lived in Shenzhen.
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Okay, okay.
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Still a large city, but at the time, you know, sort of like an up and coming city and very few foreigners.
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So there were just very limited resources for me, like, I don't know that I could have found a
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therapist. That's what I had done previously. When I had had previous burnouts, I would go,
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you know, meet with a therapist for a few months, even a year or two. And that was always very,
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very helpful. I couldn't do that from China. But what I did do was I connected with a friend
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back home in the US. And she and I had weekly phone calls where we would just check in with each
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other and have very honest conversations about what's going on. How are you processing things?
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She was an incredible friend to me. And then I also got connected to someone who is called a
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spiritual director who was here in in the US as well. And this was a time of Skype. So we were
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on Skype. And I think it was one of the first times she had ever used Skype. She had had,
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you know, never had a client who was in a different country. And but it was that was also
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really helpful for just giving me insight. She would ask lots of good questions and giving me
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insight into what's going on like deep in my soul, you know, not just kind of the surface level
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struggles, which I could talk about for days on end. And she she kind of, you know, also helped
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give me insight on, but this is who you are. And, you know, that was when I was first introduced
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to the Enneagram, you know, which is this personality type. And it that was actually
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incredibly helpful for me to recognize, okay, this is who I am. As a result, you know, this is
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what's hard for me. This is what works for me. And also, that's okay. You know, I don't need to be
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a different kind of person. I don't need to try to force myself to be a certain way.
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Because doing that hasn't been working for me. So I need to be authentic to who I am,
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and really understand that and let give myself time and space to heal, and then go pursue something
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that that not only is meaningful, but but feeds my soul. Right, right. I guess, you know, in
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modern day society, a lot of people work primarily for money, which is totally understandable.
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But you mentioned a good point about, you know, feeding your soul. Because I guess this is something
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that society overlooked quite often. Based on your personal experience, are there any like,
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ways where people can maybe try and understand, you know, the inner self a bit more and maybe find
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more meaning, you know, in work aside from, you know, monetary compensations.
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Yeah, well, obviously, we all need money to live.
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Yeah, I'm happy to answer that.
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Yes. But I think it's also understanding that money ultimately, it's a tool, right?
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Yeah. And it helps us get access to other things and to live at a certain quality of life standard.
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But but there are very, very significant limitations to what money can provide.
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And, you know, there have been studies done where people will always if you ask someone like,
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how much money do you need to be completely content? It is very typical, like the average
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person will always like double their current salary and say like, if I just had two times more
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money making now, then I will be perfectly content and I'll have everything I need.
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But the interesting thing is that once you reach that amount, like let's say you do,
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you know, you work hard, you get to that point where you have double your salary.
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And you want to double it again.
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Exactly. If someone asks you that same question again, you would say the same answer,
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oh, I need double what I have. And so I think just to recognize that there are desires within us
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that can never be met by money. I mean, money has its purpose.
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Absolutely. But but there are other things that that we need to surround ourselves with
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to give us that sense of meaning. And that will, I think for most people, you know, money is what
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gets us out of bed in the morning, right? And gets us excited to go to work. It's this idea that
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I can do something meaningful that I can change somebody's life or I can make something better
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or I can add something really beautiful and creative to the world that wasn't previously there.
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And and those are the kinds of things that, you know, we recently had a death in the family.
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And so it's made me think a lot about, you know, in your last days, what is it? What is it that
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you want to be remembered for? What is it that you how is it that you'd want to celebrate your life
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as you're passing, you know, and I don't imagine any of us would like want to be on our deathbed,
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just like drowning in cash, right? You are your deathbed. You want to be with the people you love,
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you want to you want to celebrate, you know, what the good and the beautiful things that that you
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see around you and that you've been able to experience. Well, sorry to hear about your
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death in your family, but thank you. Again, I think it's a great point you mentioned about, you know,
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what people want to be remembered for after they die, because a lot of people don't really
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spend a lot of time thinking about it. And you have have do you think you've reached a stage
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yet where you think you're more concerned perhaps about your legacy than you know what you do, you
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know, at the present day, maybe? Well, I would like to say the caveat that I don't think I'm that old.
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Hopefully I'm not near my deathbed yet. But I think, you know, my there's there's a couple things.
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And this is going to look different for everyone. This is very much my personal story. But
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I lost my father when I was very young. I was only 14 years old when he passed. And so I think
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that
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big of a loss at such a young age really shaped me in terms of recognizing that
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life doesn't last forever, and that things can end much more quickly than you might think.
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And so there is something to be said about living like you don't have as much time as you might
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expect. And so how do you make the most of the time that you have? And of course, none of us know
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exactly when we're going to go. So so I think that that has been a very significant thing in shaping
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how I think and how I think about life and death. I think also, you know, my faith just
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instills in me this sense of eternity, that that people are eternal beings with eternal
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sense. And and as such, what what matters most are the things that are eternal and not the things
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that are fleeting. And so for me, then, that is a lot of what we've been talking about. It is
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caring for other people. It is cultivating the really wonderful and beautiful things around us
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and trying to make this world a little bit more bright and just and good. And, you know, in hopes
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that those are the kinds of things that that will last far beyond my single lifetime.
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So you mentioned, you know, you finding a passion in writing during, you know, your
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burnt out years, I guess, in China, and you've since been doing that, you know, for a long time.
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What gives you the most meaning or joy in writing, you think?
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Yeah. Well, I think like many artists, there's just something in me that loves to create, you know,
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actually, I think probably most people have that in them and it comes out in different ways. So for
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me, it's writing, you know, for others, I'd be painting or innovating or, you know, gardening.
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And and so there is just the satisfaction that I, you know, as a writer, I feel like I should be
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able to describe it, but of being able to put into words the human experience in such a way
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that can be communicated and transmitted to others. You know, at the heart of writing, I think,
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is storytelling, whether it's nonfiction or fiction, I happen to write mostly nonfiction.
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But but in both regards, it's it's telling the stories of who we are as humans and what it is to
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live on this earth, you know, at this moment in time. And and so in that storytelling, there's this
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rich sense of connection with, I think, the sort of universal human experience, but also connection
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with other individual people. You know, when I get to I've done some journalism. And so when I get
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to interview people and share their story in an article, there is this particular connection
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that I feel with that person of like, now I know some of your story, now I know some of who you
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are. And it feels like a privilege to be able to share that with other people. And there's a lot
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of writing that is solitary, but but I get to be part of, you know, some really rich and wonderful
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communities of writers where we're all supporting each other. And I occasionally hear feedback
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from people who've read my work, like yourself, and, and that's really, really meaningful, because,
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you know, I don't think we would have met, right? If I had written it and put it out there, it's my
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great power. Yeah, so it's a great opportunity to connect with others. And I think that's a great
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opportunity to connect with others. And I think just to help build empathy in the world, like,
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help us all to understand one another a little bit better and to hopefully then care for each
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other more. So finally, before we end the interview, I know that you are, you know, the director,
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the editorial director of, you know, Made for Blacks. So usually we ask our guests if they are,
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you know, recruiting or hiring any people. And if that's the case, could you maybe tell us a little
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bit about perhaps your company and, you know, if you would be hiring, you know, in the future?
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Yeah, we're a pretty small nonprofit. There's there's only six of us on the team where I hope
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they're not burnt out. I think we're doing okay. So I would say this is probably the healthiest
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organization I've ever been a part of, which is saying a lot. I really give a lot of credit to
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our executive director for being very intentional about making sure that we take time off when we
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need to. We actually create a lot of space in our team meetings to check in with each other to,
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you know, because we're a faith based nonprofit. So we even engage in spiritual practices together
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in our team meetings. And by the way, this is all over Zoom because we're remote, we're spread
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out across the country in the US, but but it's still a really beautiful way to connect with one
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another and build that relationship. And so Pax is a nonprofit that really hopes to inspire and
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equip the Christian church to pursue peace and justice. And we particularly want to elevate
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and equip people of color because those are groups that have been historically marginalized
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with the church and have not been fully empowered and, you know, given enough leadership and
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respect. So we do that through creating a lot of different content. We have guides, we have an
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online publication, we have curriculum. We're also launching a young adult fellowship for,
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you know, it's great that we're having this conversation about about career and, you know,
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meaning and vocation because our fellowship for young adults ages 20 to 35 is all about
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figuring out what is your calling? What is your vocation? And how do you continue to find meaning
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and integrate, you know, if you are a person who cares deeply about a more just world,
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how do you integrate those values into your work? So that's something that we're launching this fall
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that we're really excited about. So those are some of the projects and programs that we have going on.
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I believe you are hiring an executive assistant. So if someone... I can include a link, you know,
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in the description. Sure, yeah, yeah. So I could say it's a fantastic team. And, you know, if not
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this role, there may be other ones in the future, or you're definitely welcome to check out our
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fellowship. We're looking for folks who want to be a part of a learning cohort for six months and
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really seriously delve into these questions of what does it look like to find meaningful work
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that is authentic to who I am. Well, thanks. Thanks so much for the interview today. And,
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you know, wish you all the success in your career. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's a great conversation.
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